Firstly, I have argued on these forums against the notion of inter-faith dialogue. To me, it is a nonsense...so I think you and I are in agreement. Yes, we exchange ideas, debates etc....but certainly not in an attempt to woo the other person into accepting a position so everyone can ‘get along.’ For me, as I’m sure it is with you, Christianity and Islam cannot be both true. Hence, our forum discussions are aimed at defending our positions.
Secondly, on the question of you and I sinning - I was not about to ‘preach’ to you about the love of God as you have suggested. Rather, I was going to ask about your view of Moses who instructed the people of Israel to shed the blood of a spotless lamb in order to provide a temporary atonement for their sins. How do you have your sins atoned for, noting the pattern established by Moses?
When you say you had a picture of Jesus and prayed - I find that rather sad. For the Christian, we have a sense of Christ (which you acknowledge as Messiah - the anointed one) indwelling us...not an image or icon. That is what false churches teach. Worship is internal...not to an image. Because Jesus rose, we have that confidence and power in him. I believe even the Koran teaches that Jesus rose from the dead.
I will respect your post and refrain from debating the subject of the trinity.
When you say that you detest what I do, I find that telling.
Sebastian, I believe we are both in the exactly the same position...we are each endeavouring to share our faiths, are we not? You are doing that with much conviction, as I am. However, I don’t find what you are doing detestable. I’m sad that you pass this charge on to me. If I am being detestable doing exactly what you are doing - then it would be wise for us to stop.
You say, never will I worship anything but my Lord God - it is He who has given me life - well, this is my statement too. In fact, I would say, God has given me life, because Messiah gave up his life for me. As the bible so wonderfully says, ‘greater love has no man, than one who lays down his life for his friends.’
it is true that God forgives, but the curse is upon those who reject God’s signs, choosing a path of their own desire, since God makes clear his path and his signs. To follow a false prophet is, in the end, a grave error and leads to other sins and corruption of the society.
Sebastian
Sebastian, I must say I find the religious argument to explain sin and corruption quite counterfactual. Anywhere you travel, be that place Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, whatever, you will find corruption and sin, honesty and faithfulness. It would appear to depend more on the individual and possibly their family background than on their religious affiliation. I have, for example, Iranian friends who escaped from that country; their reports of incidents of mob mentality, suspicion, greed and violence are not good advertisements for that theocratic state.
By and large, religions seem good at lifting people out individual narcissism into social conformity. But their success at lifting people out of group narcissism to genuine globalism (from ‘just us’ to ‘all of us’) is, well, patchy.
Hi Sebastion,
I know from personal experience how utterly true some things can “appear” to be, how passionately convincing the mind can make things.
About 4 years ago I had a weird reaction to a number of incredibly stressful events in my life. At the same time I became aware of some data (about limited oil production, see my signature for more). However, due to all the stress in my life at that time, I ended up CERTAIN of something that I now know I cannot be certain about. My my panicked mind extrapolated this basic data out to be an ABSOLUTELY CERTAINTY ABOUT THE FUTURE. I now know that, while there are grounds for concern and the basic data is still true, the “certainties” my mind was so convinced of were anything but certain!
So here’s the thing: the mind can play games. You are currently reading the Koran for your evidence, and find it compelling. Yet we don’t. Why is that?
The Koran is contradicted by history, yet you keep offering the “evidence” of the Koran, and the “evidence” of Mohammed’s vision of the “angel” Gabriel. I know this to be nonsense, and when I read the Koran am struck by the fact that I am reading the ecstatic rantings of an illiterate mind that just did not like the carefully and calmly recorded facts about Jesus execution and then later resurrection, recorded by multiple eyewitnesses and his execution even referred to by HOSTILE historical sources.
Yet when you read it, you are again convinced. Something in the language has a certain power over you. How do you know your mind has not just become obsessed by something in the language of Mohammed’s ecstatic rantings? Language itself can become a very powerful motivator, as we find in poems or song, and yet the poems and songs can be about completely fictional events. (I am moved by some completely fictional poems in “The Lord of the Rings” and find them “emotionally compelling” even though I know the whole thing to be an incredibly detailed construction and artifact of the imagination).
Is there anything other than the Koran that you can offer me as evidence that Mohammed was right? Because I can offer you the multiple eyewitness accounts of Jesus death and resurrection recorded in the bible — multiple eyewitness accounts from people who eventually were executed for daring to talk about Jesus death and resurrection. This is not some distraction or error, but the very heart of Christianity. As the Apostle Paul points out in one verse, if Jesus did not die for our sins and was not raised again to new life, our faith is futile and we “may as well eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die”.
I can offer you the non-Christian… no, that’s not worded strongly enough… I can offer you the ANTI-Christian historians of the day that verify Jesus was executed.
Yet you can only repeatedly offer us the ecstatic rantings of a man high on either his own visions, drugs, or some sort of epileptic fit. When all you have are the ravings of one man who during his lifetime created a movement that eventually gathered him some power (meaning he could no longer drop the movement as a poor hobby or else he would lose his power), and when Christianity has carefully recorded accounts of multiple eyewitnesses about Jesus death and resurrection, I know which I find more compelling.
However, I have to be honest here. Christians also believe that it is not just the intellectual arguments that have to work to help someone truly trust our Lord and God, the Lord Jesus, and his Holy Spirit. So I’ll pray for you that the Holy Spirit will work in your life and help you think about the “certainties” that you currently cling to.
PS: How did Mohammed get what we worship wrong as well?
“Surah 5: 116: “And behold! God will say:
O Jesus the son of Mary didst say unto
men, ‘worship me and my mother as
gods’ in derogation of Allah?”
I can tell you for a fact that the bible no-where says Mary is God. God is one God, triune in nature, 3 persons within the Godhead, eternally God and wonderfully personal with God the “Father”, God the “Son”, and God the “Holy Spirit” all co-existing from all eternity. It means that at the heart of the universe there has always been relationship and love from all eternity, in perfect harmony and perfectly satisfied.
If anything, wouldn’t a “single personality” God like Allah have been lonely way back in deep eternity, before any angel or human being was made? Wouldn’t Allah NEED us just to stay sane and not become totally bored?
I can offer you the non-Christian… no, that’s not worded strongly enough… I can offer you the ANTI-Christian historians of the day that verify Jesus was executed.
I’m not sure the evidence for Jesus’ crucifixion from non-Christian sources is as compelling as some folk make out. They were writing a long time later and the question arises as to the reliability of their sources. In terms of his intention (to explain who Christians were) Tacitus, could simply have been expressing common belief. The Koran’s position is that the Romans made a mistake.
Can we reject out of hand the possibility of mistaken identity in Roman executions? By our standards, their justice was pretty rough!
While unlikely, the Koran’s position would seem to many to be no more implausible than our claim of Christ’s resurrection.
Firstly, I have argued on these forums against the notion of inter-faith dialogue. To me, it is a nonsense...so I think you and I are in agreement.
Yes, Andrew, for some people it is a nonsense. For others it is meaningful and helpful. It depends on the capacities of the person. I, for one, would not hold out much hope of engaging in such dialogue with someone who is quick to write off around (just guessing) 80% of his fellow believers who might appreciate and use icons as members of ‘false churches’. How stupid they all must be, and how hopeless their Shepherd!
When you say you had a picture of Jesus and prayed - I find that rather sad. For the Christian, we have a sense of Christ (which you acknowledge as Messiah - the anointed one) indwelling us...not an image or icon. That is what false churches teach. Worship is internal...not to an image.
With respect, please, this is nonsense. Even a mental image is still an image. And every belief is still a representation. Furthermore, most Anglican churches contain images of Jesus (Andrew, did you check the windows?). Also, Sebastian never said that he worshipped his picture of Jesus, he just said he had one.
Sebastian, Andrew is right: there are false Christians out there; or, as I would prefer, more charitably: Christians who behave falsely and betray their gospel (and it has nothing to do with using images). Included in those are individuals who permit their prophetic flights of fancy cloud their basic Christian moral intuition that God cares for the oppressed and expects us to do so as well (rather than blame the victims and support institutional discrimination).
Sebastian was offended by historical facts presented about Mohammad and the Qu’ran in my last offering. But being offended by the truth is a problem if one has been presented another picture?
Ken Austin has quoted baseless material and is trying to insult Islam and the prophet Muhammad without applying knowledge. Ignorance is common. His quotes are weak and unsupported.
Perhaps, Sebastian, you prefer Wikipedia Muhammad,
From Answering Islam site just a side point:
Other historical errors of Islam
Does the reader believe that Abraham did not offer Isaac, but Ishmael, as a sacrifice? This is what all Muslim scholars say. Do you know that the Qur’an claims that Haman was pharaoh’s prime minister even though Haman lived in Babylon one thousand years later? Yet the Qur’an says so. The Qur’an says that the one who picked Moses from the river was not his sister but his mother (28:6-8), and that a Samaritan was the one who molded the golden calf for the children of Israel and misguided them, and the golden calf was lowing (refer to chapter 20:85-88) though it is well-known that Samaria was not in existence at that time. The Samaritans came after the Babylonian exile. How could one of them have made the golden calf for the people of Israel?
Concerning the birth of Christ, the Qur’an teaches that the Virgin Mary gave birth to him under the shade of a palm tree and not in a manger of sheep (refer to Mary 19:23). The Qur’an ignores all the documented historical evidence available to all people across the ages and brings us new discoveries!
The Qur’an claims (Chapter 2:125-127) that Abraham and Ishmael, his son, are the ones who built The Ka’ba in Mecca in Saudi Arabia. The late Dr. Taha Husayn (the most famous professor of Arabic literature in Egypt) acknowledges that the information recorded in the Qur’an pertaining to the construction of Ka’ba at the hand of Abraham and Ishmael is not historically documented. He said:
“The case of this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons” (quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, p. 170).
This declaration invoked the rage of the Muslim scholars against him. The former president of Tunisia did the same thing when he stated that the Qur’an contains mythical stories. Muslim scholars revolted against him and threatened to kill him because these are Muhammad’s orders - kill anybody who insults the Qur’an. So what could Taha Husayn or Abu Ruqayba [better known in the West as Bourgiba] (or we) do if the Qur’an rejects the most scientifically documented historical stories? Are we supposed to shut up our mouth and close our minds lest we be killed?
A reply for Ken Austin. The evidence you are attracted to is whatever evidence supports your opinion. If I wanted, I could find you 1,000 books declaring Islam to be false, corrupt, evil, etc. And if I wanted, I could bring you 1,000 books declaring Christianity to be false, corrupt, evil, etc. The opinions of men are numerous.
How would you know who was right? Praise be to God. God has given us more powerful methods of truth-discovery than these. He has given us signs. Divine signs are more powerful than these arguments of opinion.
I testify that Muhammad is a messenger of God, and I testify that the Qur’an found in the same form throughout the modern world, (and if you travel and read it for yourself you will see that), is his message, which is to say that I’m not going to be held accountable for everything that is written on the website I hav written about below. It is scholarly, and I assume much of it is true, however, there may be errors and there may be exaggerations:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaac_and_ishmael.htm
As for the accuracy and the uniformity of the Qur’an, I’ll give you evidence. The rule in prayer is as follows: the prayer leader recites a piece of the Qur’an before we bow. If he makes a mistake or forgets where he’s up to, another worshipper will immediately call out from behind him, continuing the lines from where he faultered, until he restarts.
This happens frequently, say about once a week in my life. A number of the worshippers in the line will be aware of the lines they are hearing and some will be completely oblivious to their meaning, having not studied. I am yet to hear a single occurrence in my life of when there was disagreement among the followers about what was to be read in the next line. If no-one knows, then we cut the recital there, and we bow.
Likewise, I’m yet to see any discrepancy in the quranic manuscripts between one another. The reason for the uniformity is that it is spiritually empowered and it enters the heart deeper than anything else, and so when the text is halted like in the above example, the hearts of the worshippers instantly throw forth the next line, it is more familiar than scratching a scratch on the body. It is written more deeply upon the heart than such a worldly action. While some Muslims would sooner scratch their nose than remember the prayer lines, there are many who are in the opposite situation: they would much sooner complete a line for a forgetful imam, than scratch their nose in prayer.
So what you are saying Sebastion is that in prayer you see evidence that Muslims have memorized their errors really, really, really well, but… they are still historical errors that they have memorized!
I posted historic errors in the Qu’ran which are supported by the verses in the Qu’ran as quoted. How do respond to these particular errors, as quoted above?
You are obviously rapt in Islam, and I for one cannot understand this devotion after reading, say the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Have you read, say the book of Matthew in the New Testament for yourself?
This really explains how God rescues mankind from slavery to sins, in a way that man cannot achieve himself by his own ideas or efforts. Jesus death on the cross, which is the death we humans should receive as God’s punishment, but a punishment which God takes away from us (who believe) as a free gift of forgiveness. Jesus, the perfect, sinless sacrifice by God of his only son on our behalf. God is the Life Saver of mankind.
I find Mohammad’s teaching is in great error in comparison to this. Since Mohammad, many people have claimed similar things like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses etc. To me you are all in the same boat, heading in the wrong direction.
Sebastian, God has spoken his final Word to us by his son, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is gospel truth.
Praise be to God. Glory be to the almighty, the trustworthy, the very truth, the supreme, the compelling, the irresistable, the ever-living, the sustainer.
Glory be to Him, and what else is worthy of glory. None is worthy of it, for all else must perish. Praise is for Him. On Him does all depend.
Where does the burden of proof lie? He shows his signs and then those who wish to wrangle with Him, rather than supplicate Him, He has no need of them. Does He need Satan, the arrogant, or Pharaoh, who thought himself a God? Does he need any blasphemer or stubborn sinner?
He doesn’t need us, not me, not you, not Jesus, not Mary, not this earth. He is free of all needs and wants. We don’t nourish Him but He nourishes us.
So why must God reveal a book in accordance with your desires, Mr Austin? Do you command Him to fit it to the arrangement of the files in your hard drive? Does this revelation upset the flow? Are you going to ask Him to tailor it a bit here and there because it doesn’t match the writings of human beings?
If God asks you for your testimony on the day of judgement, and you present all your papers, and they are filed and noted, and then He asks for some evidence that is from Him, that they are actually true, then where will you go? Will you turn to Jesus? If he rejects your doctrine and says: “I never taught you that"… where will you go?
Do you have a vision of the day of judgement? Do you have an angel that has shown you the events? Do you have a promise from the creator? You are far in error and cannot see the way. Jesus is seeking help from God, and yet you say that Jesus can help you, by his own will, without reference to the almighty. You say he is a divine agency. Nay, he is but a man created!
He seeks the mercy of his Lord and creator, the creator of the heavens and the earth. He prayed for his daily bread. He came from non-existence to existence. He relies upon something for sustenance. He is not divine. Praise be to the Lord of the Worlds, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
But Sebastion, surely you can see that we could say exactly the same things back to you? If God is Trinity and decides to send his son incarnate into this world, to take on human flesh not just now but for all eternity (which boggles my mind!), who am I to argue with God? Who am I to say “But that doesn’t make sense! How can God who is eternal and ever-present across this entire cosmos be also wrapped up in the frail humanity of Jesus?”
What answer shall you give God when you see Him as Jesus enthroned in glory, when you meet our One God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? He sent His Son into the world to die for you and you rejected that it was possible! The Christian scriptures make the same claim on your loyalty, the same claim of infallibility and self-sufficiency, the same claim of intellectual integrity.
So do the Jewish Scriptures, so do the Mormons, so do many other faiths.
Here’s the thing — just relying on the claim of infallibility is not enough if I am choosing between many faiths with the claim of infallibility. I have to make a decision at some point. When I have multiple eye-witness accounts to Jesus being executed and rising again. Yet one guy 5 centuries later claims an angel said otherwise? Well, do I trust one guy who on his own says he saw and angel which gave him bad history, or do I trust multiple eye-witnesses to Jesus execution and resurrection, even the likes of Saul who once persecuted Christians and then became Paul the Apostle?
In the last 10 years the little I know of archaeology seems to be confirming more New Testament records. They’ve found more evidence for more places and names in the bible.
Yet the list of historical errors in Islam just seems to be enormous. Mohammed simply got it wrong.
However, I will echo your praise of our God, the Triune One.
Praise be to God. Glory be to the almighty, the trustworthy, the very truth, the supreme, the compelling, the irresistable, the ever-living, the sustainer.
One thing that strikes me as a little peculiar about religious thinking in general, is how the need for assurance can tie itself to the most flimsy of evidence. Other contributors on this forum have already clearly pointed out some difficulties with the Quran. But the evidence for Christianity and Judaism is also debatable. In fact, the debate goes on to this very day.
The archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Jewish scriptures is mixed and controversial. Again, this is not my judgement: the controversy rages.
I am not particularly persuaded by reports of eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. More people have seen Elvis alive, have been abducted and probed by aliens and have rediscovered repressed memories of satanic abuse. The claim that God raised Jesus from the dead strikes me as not simply a disinterested eyewitness account but a proclamation that it is Jesus and his iteration of God’s ‘kingdom’ that has the Father’s seal of approval rather than the Jewish Kingdom (focussed on the Jerusalem temple) or the reign of Caesar.
Personally, I have no desire to transcend my time and place. I do not seek certainty. When I look at the cross of Christ, I am not moved by theories of sacrificial purification or penal substitution. I see, rather, the human condition and the love of God embracing that by becoming that. Were I to seek to build a structure of absolute certainty I would be setting up a salvation outside the cross. Like the tower of Babel, all such structures end up being houses of cards.
Praise be to God, who is one not three, who hath no partner nor son. The indivisible who sees and is not seen, who fully knows and is not fully known.
Praise be to God who has led this discussion to an excellent position, where the reliability of scripture is in question. The posts above this one show that.
Praise be to God who has let my eyes touch a living miracle, the noble Qur’an. A revelation from the almighty which cannot be equalled.
This is mentioned below, where the revelation says: And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers If there are any besides God, if your doubts are true.
But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
This is to say, that the Quran presents an open challenge to all and sundry to produce a book or a chapter as equal to it.
O people! Recite the Quran in its original language and you will see that it is not an ordinary book.
However, its truth is also available to those who study it and are willing to be guided to the right path, to the mercy of God.
Yet, learning the recital may be a faster, and surer, way to see signs that it is not from a human author, and that it is no ordinary scripture. So don’t turn away from this challenge. The Qur’an is claiming to be from God and it puts the burden of proof on you to find that it is not.
In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Alif Lam Mim.
This is the Book; in it is no doubt, to those who fear God;
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and have the certainty that there is a Hereafter.
These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they incur.
Of the people there are some who say: “We believe in God and the Last Day;” but they do not believe.
Fain would they deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise it not!
In their hearts is a disease; and God has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they incur, because they are false to themselves.
When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!”
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise it not.
When it is said to them: “Believe as the others believe:” They say: “Shall we believe as the fools believe?” Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
When they meet those who believe, they say: “We believe;” but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: “We are really with you: We were only jesting.”
God will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones To and fro.
These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, God took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return to the path.
Or another similitude is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky: In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning: They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But God is ever round the rejecters!
The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light is on them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if God willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for God hath power over all things.
O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;
Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto God when ye know.
And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers If there are any besides God, if your doubts are true.
But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: “Why, this is what we were fed with before,” for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure; and they abide therein for ever.
God disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: “What means God by this similitude?” By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake the path,-
Those who break God’s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what God Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss to themselves.
For more information on the inimitability of the Qur’an, visit: http://www.theinimitablequran.com/ and yet, be sure that God knows best; to blindly trust a scholar is foolish, but to read his work and seek guidance from God is a fair way of seeking knowledge. God knows best.
Eric Henry Wynter Best - 19 November 2008 12:12 PM
I am not particularly persuaded by reports of eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. More people have seen Elvis alive, have been abducted and probed by aliens and have rediscovered repressed memories of satanic abuse. ...
Kindly,
Eric.
I guess the distinction I made somewhere previously is that these eyewitnesses were prepared to die for what they saw with their own eyes.
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